backtocrappie

[Wannabe...]

Thank you Massachussetts!!!  Eat chit Mr. O. 

Ummm, Jwhite, is it OK if we say chit over here? 

Wannabe...

[Bob # 1]

Thank you Massachussetts!!!  Eat chit Mr. O. 

Ummm, Jwhite, is it OK if we say chit over here? 

Wannabe...

It is ok to say chit

But on the other side of the coin
Massachussetts carried the ball to the 50 yard line.
It is up to the rest of us to make it touchdown so
that we dont come this close again to losing our freedom.

Dont care what party is in.........as long as it is for
the party of the people.......not the fat cats who
think that they are Gods that can walk on water!

[GMAN]

Amen

It is just a battle that has been won. The war will take years if not decades.

 

[LBM]

Yes it has been a very good week.

Massachussetts comes through saying shove Obamacare where its dark damp and smelly and today the Supreme Court comes through in support of freedom of speech saying the Mccain/Feingold Campaign Finance Act also belongs in the same dark damp and smelly place. Yes there is Hope and Change I can believe in that is for liberty and not tyranny.

[J.C.Allin]

Funny. So now if you work for some monolithic company in some desolate berg in the middle of god forsaken nowhere, the share holders of said company can allocate profits  -- that your blood and sweat helped to produce mind you -- to buy the support of politicians that will seek to empower health insurance companies that will A. provide you with only marginal coverage and then drop you at the onset of catastrophic illness or B. refuse to offer you coverage at all.

Har dee har har... Yeah, that is a big win for the little guy alright -- if by little guy you mean giant corporate entity with no regard for anything other than securing huge sums of money for its shareholders.

Funny how this works.

Ok guys, here is the deal, next year we are all going on a one month fishing excursion in Norway. We'll visit the Vinmonopolet before heading out to nab some pike and salmon. While fishing we'll proceed to get really drunk and when LBM suffers a severe ankle sprang trying to land a monstrous salmon we'll then pay a visit to the hospital... well first we will all laugh until Wannabee wets himself and Bactu throws up. But then we will go to hospital to see just how evil this socialized medicine thing is.  

Maybe we can even make time to talk to some of the nice Norwegian ladies about their life in a boreal country with socialist tendencies... that might be fun... well fun for me anyway.

Trip to Norway for research. Bactu, would you place this on the club agenda please.  

[JWhitebydam]

C'mon J.C., I know you gotta be the devil's advocate or something here, balance out the right a little, but:  

 this crud they were so desperately trying to ram through was nothing more than just another get rich
(them and their buddies) quick scheme, politics at their worst and would not have ended in a Norway-like
result.  I AM however down with the trip as proposed, to do a little first hand investigation.  

[LBM]

“Funny. So now if you work for some monolithic company in some desolate berg in the middle of god forsaken nowhere, the share holders of said company can allocate profits  -- that your blood and sweat helped to produce mind you -- to buy the support of politicians that will seek to empower health insurance companies that will A. provide you with only marginal coverage and then drop you at the onset of catastrophic illness or B. refuse to offer you coverage at all.”

As for the inhabitants in the middle of a god forsaken nowhere I would think they should consider themselves fortunate in having a giant company around where they could freely choose to trade their labors for wages where both parties have made free market transactions freely choosing to make the exchange, resulting in mutual benefits.
 
After freely exchanging your blood and sweat in helping this company does the company try and tell you how you should spend your wages and what right do you claim in trying to tell the employer how he should spend his profits?

Yes it is despicable where business’s go to the politicians to enact laws solely for the purpose of restraining others from entering the market place to compete with the established business. Yet in today’s climate any business could be considered irresponsible for not having lobbyist trying to protect the interest of the business from the statist loons in Washington who think they know better how business’s should operate and can pass arbitrary legislation that can kill any legitimate legal business. 

Seeing your cogent observations on insurance company faults I would expect to see the J.C.Allin Insurance Company out there profitably competing with the existing over regulated companies but I probably won’t since you seem to be implying the insurance companies are obligated in supplying coverage regardless of any profitability factors. I don’t see people putting their own money into un-profitable ventures.

“Har dee har har... Yeah, that is a big win for the little guy alright -- if by little guy you mean giant corporate entity with no regard for anything other than securing huge sums of money for its shareholders.   “

Let me think about this hum …. Would I want my hard earned IRA monies invested in Mutual Funds that wasn’t seeking out companies looking for huge sums of money for its shareholders…. I think not.

“Ok guys, here is the deal, next year we are all going on a one month fishing excursion in Norway. We'll visit the Vinmonopolet before heading out to nab some pike and salmon. While fishing we'll proceed to get really drunk and when LBM suffers a severe ankle sprang trying to land a monstrous salmon we'll then pay a visit to the hospital... well first we will all laugh until Wannabee wets himself and Bactu throws up. But then we will go to hospital to see just how evil this socialized medicine thing is. “

I wonder what that hardworking Norwegian working his butt off trying to get enough money together to get a larger house or apartment or car for his family thinks of some foolish foreigners getting drunk and hurting themselves and getting their free medical services they didn’t pay into or for. My needs are my responsibility and should not be an obligation on another.

[fishinRod]

“Ok guys, here is the deal, next year we are all going on a one month fishing excursion in Norway. We'll visit the Vinmonopolet before heading out to nab some pike and salmon. While fishing we'll proceed to get really drunk and when LBM suffers a severe ankle sprang trying to land a monstrous salmon we'll then pay a visit to the hospital... well first we will all laugh until Wannabee wets himself and Bactu throws up. But then we will go to hospital to see just how evil this socialized medicine thing is. “

 

LBM, can you tell me exactly when this trip is suppose to happen so I can tell my boss and wife?  Oh yea, what color jigs should I bring for pike and salmon?  Dont rag on Wannabe and Bactu to hard, they cant help it.

[cook]

Uhh...before I book my trip to Boreal Norway...what will we be getting drunk on?I can't do Aquavit ...again

[J.C.Allin]

LBM, you certainly have a lot of faith in your ideology. Back on earth, the propensity of the powerful interests to exploit the political process is an undeniable fact of life. And for the record, I never claimed that my boss should be precluded from donating to a political campaign (not that I have a boss or anything). "Bosses" tend to be members of the human species -- what they do with their money is fine by me.

"Seeing your cogent observations on insurance company faults I would expect to see the J.C.Allin Insurance Company out there profitably competing with the existing over regulated companies but I probably won’t since you seem to be implying the insurance companies are obligated in supplying coverage regardless of any profitability factors."

I compete in other venues -- and if you only knew the hoops I have to jump through because of your messiah and his fat-nosed predecessor.

"I don’t see people putting their own money into un-profitable ventures."

You certainly don't see people willingly putting money in unprofitable ventures, immoral ventures, yes.

"I wonder what that hardworking Norwegian working his butt off trying to get enough money together to get a larger house or apartment or car for his family thinks of some foolish foreigners getting drunk and hurting themselves and getting their free medical services they didn’t pay into or for."

Then watch your step!

"My needs are my responsibility and should not be an obligation on another."

That is fun to say LBM, but it is fairy tale talk. Regardless of the abstractions tossed around by political theoreticians, you are an organism that is biologically hardwired to live within, and contribute to, a social order defined by complex *interdependence*. When this is accepted and implemented at the policy level, you end up with extremely efficient societies that excel in things like:
low crime rates, happiness, low infant mortality, life expectancy, education, job satisfaction, high productivity, literacy, vigorous per capita GDP -- you know, all that stuff that every red blooded American knows is just hippie B.S.

[J.C.Allin]

“I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and to bid defiance to the laws of our country.”

Thomas Jefferson, letter to George Logan. November 12, 1816

[LBM]

“LBM, you certainly have a lot of faith in your ideology. “

Absolutely no faith at all it is just an observation of history and the acceptance of reality. The brilliance of our founding fathers for them to have recognized that excess governments were and has always been the major bane of human existence and for them to set up a government with checks and balances and a constitution placing absolute restrictions on that government was so amazing. Then to see that over the next couple hundred years this country turned out to be the most exceptional, productive and freest nation to have ever existed in the history of mankind. The country produced an unimaginable amount of wealth envied by the rest of the world. With that wealth they raised armies fighting two world wars against tyrants and on winning, our country’s wealth was used to help rebuild the defeated countries allowing their people to set up and govern themselves.  With our exceptionalism and wealth this country has proven to be the most generous country to have ever existed. With all that, our semi free market capitalistic system has been scorned and held in contempt by statist from within this country and from all over the world and this country has now elected a statist progressive that wants to fundamentally change this country. That is just pure insanity—what an idiot!

“Regardless of the abstractions tossed around by political theoreticians, you are an organism that is biologically hardwired to live within, and contribute to, a social order defined by complex *interdependence*.  “

I can accept that but only as would be interpreted by our founding fathers where one is free to interact with other citizens, or not to interact, with transactions exchanging value for value for mutual benefit and satisfaction.

I won’t accept the statist progressive interpretation holding that the correct means of human interactions and transactions involves taking a value from one and giving that value to another at the point of a government gun.

“When this is accepted and implemented at the policy level, you end up with extremely efficient societies that excel in things like:
low crime rates, happiness, low infant mortality, life expectancy, education, job satisfaction, high productivity, literacy, vigorous per capita GDP “

You have a very nice laundry list of items there which rightly can be considered as desirable things of some value for human existence where only two of them could be considered with in the frame work enumerated by the founders of just how the government might be obligated to supply them. Those two items are crime and happiness with the understanding that the words “the pursuit of” should precede the word happiness meaning the government protects your right to take action that you deem necessary to achieve you own happiness but the government isn’t obligated to guarantee your success at happiness.

Since the protection of individual rights is the fundamental obligation of our government a police force, the military and system of courts is instituted to protect those rights. The police are to protect you from criminals within the country the military to protect you from foreign invaders and the courts to adjudicate disputes amongst the citizens. Just think about how astounding it was for a government, for the first time in history, to be instituted solely to protect individual rights and leaving the citizens free to interact and pursue their own dreams and passions and look at what those individual freedoms have accomplished.
 
From your laundry list of items I can see how successful our State run progressive public education system has done at getting folks to evade and ignore the US Constitution and push for all kind of things they think the Government should do even though doing those things would be a direct violation of individual rights. Its amazing how the progressives think the 200 plus year old US Constitution is somehow outdated and needs changed and that the evils of too much government is no longer the horrible threat to mankind that it was 200 years ago. The nature of man hasn’t changed and the evils of big governments haven’t changed over the ages.

[J.C.Allin]

Like I said, ideologies are fun, sometimes even more fun than real life.

Anytime you want to take your pickaxe down to the local interstate on-ramp I would be happy to join you, after all, you seem to be clinging to the idea that everything the government has touched is a pile of s*** (sorry about that) and is worth of being abolished -- a sentiment I might share with you so long as you are willing to shoulder the burden of reaching that conclusion. If this is about pussyfooting around then who cares, civilization will continue its march toward increasingly colossal destruction of my rights and your rights and the rights of indiginous people and the rights of our planet's varied biota.  

My problem with the right is its propensity to talk a good game, but offer little in terms of real substance. Do you believe that we will ever return to the days of quotidian agrarianism that informed the ideals of our founding fathers? Do you truly believe it is possible for a country the size of the US to regress to such a state and survive as a nation? And is that even desirable? Perhaps you are more optimistic than I am.

The left may be poisoned and inept, but the right is equally despicable -- more so in fact. Any political party that would deny scientific fact for the purpose of pleasing moneyed interests is my enemy and the enemy of democracy. Any political party that would seek to appease pagans, mystics, and conspiracists for the sole purpose of securing votes is my enemy and the enemy of democracy. One side promotes what more or less amounts to an open acceptance of the fact that humans, intrinsically imperfect as they may be, tend to construct hierarchical social orderings that reflect their makers. Whilst the other seeks to deny the basic fact of human nature in words only, but behind closed doors it's a different story.    

I don't claim to like this stuff LBM, I'm just trying to be realistic.

"Our 'neoconservatives' are neither new nor conservative, but old as Bablyon and evil as Hell."

"Abolition of a woman's right to abortion, when and if she wants it, amounts to compulsory maternity: a form of rape by the State. "

Edward Abbey

[LBM]

“Anytime you want to take your pickaxe down to the local interstate on-ramp I would be happy to join you,  “

I don’t have a clue about that comment. Wonder if some Psilocybin mushrooms are talking here.

“, you seem to be clinging to the idea that everything the government has touched is a pile of shit and is worth of being abolished “

I don’t think I have ever said such a thing but I do have strong views on Federal Government encroachments on our liberties as they try to operate outside the bounds of it fundamental obligations in the protection of individual rights. I don’t have a problem with the police the courts and the military or the interstate highway system or public roads or toll roads.

I do have problems with the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 and the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 both great and wonderful things that would even out market cycles keeping us on a forever onward and upwards cycle of economic nirvana of utopian prosperity. Looking at the situation today and I don’t think the economics wizards of today are any smarter than the economic wizards of yesterday.

How I see it with all the rules regulation and legislation imposed on the market place is that it tries to eliminate the unalterable links between cause and effect in reality and the rules tend to anesthetize the judgments of the players in the market place because they think the government has these rules in place which will protect them from the consequences of their own actions.

I with no formal education in economics tend to think market cycles are inevitable due the unalterable nature of man and that only with omniscience would it be possible to manipulate the infinite elements of the market place and keep a forever upwards curve in the market cycle. The market cycle is the one and only definitive link to reality for easily telling the player that he is wrong or right in his actions and with that information he can make the proper adjustments.

Now the market place is telling General Motors that they are failing and that they should be in Bankruptcy courts and reallocating their resources in the market place in a more proper and prosperous manner which would be good for the economy. But no BO thinks taxpayer monies is needed to bail them out when the market place says GM’s resources are being misused and damaging to the over all economy. Is continuing to misuse those resources really going to help the economy when they could be reallocated somewhere else into the market place for a profitable outcome which would help the economy? No I guess not since there are plenty of ivy league economic graduates with the hubris to step forwards and help out our statist progressive collectivist thug president with his awful agenda. I’m sure all very similar to how easy it was for say Stalin, Hitler or Mao to have toady economic advisors fawning around them.

“civilization will continue its march toward increasingly colossal destruction of my rights and your rights and the rights of indiginous people and the rights of our planet's varied biota.   “

As for our indigenous populations the concept of individual rights was not part of their culture. They generally speaking were usually at war with other tribes. Tribalism is just a subset of the concept of collectivism where the non-quantifiable indefinable and vague idea of ‘the good of the society’ comes first and foremost over the good and or the rights of the individual. I’m glad that the warring tribal collectivists ended up losing their struggles with ones that eventually recognized and holds the rights of the individual and values of freedom. 

Secondly to ascribe or connect with plants and fungi the concept of rights indicates a total incomprehension of the meaning of rights.

“Do you believe that we will ever return to the days of quotidian agrarianism that informed the ideals of our founding fathers?  Do you truly believe it is possible for a country the size of the US to regress to such a state and survive as a nation? And is that even desirable?”

No and no and no. What have I ever said that indicates that I want this country to return to a daily agrarian life? All my rants center about leaving people alone and free to choose.

“Any political party that would deny scientific fact for the purpose of pleasing moneyed interests is my enemy and the enemy of democracy.  ”

I’ll need some help here as to just which ‘facts’ and ‘moneyed interests’ you are referring to.  At the moment I’m thinking of the absolutely distorted scientific facts that came out in a UN report on global warming. All facts that if accepted would help out Al Gore, the moneyed interest, and if those distorted facts were acted upon as the distorters wanted to it would definitely result with world wide totalitarianism – which I can agree is the enemy of democracy. Do we finally agree on something here?

“ Any political party that would seek to appease pagans, mystics, and conspiracists for the sole purpose of securing votes is my enemy and the enemy of democracy. One side promotes what more or less amounts to an open acceptance of the fact that humans, intrinsically imperfect as they may be, tend to construct hierarchical social orderings that reflect their makers. Whilst the other seeks to deny the basic fact of human nature in words only, but behind closed doors it's a different story.   “

I’m not sure what you said here but it does sound similar to one of my complaints about both parties which I have said before and that is where the democrats think that the voters are ignorant and incompetent and need legislation to help them live and the republicans think they need to pass legislation to help the voters get through the pearly gates.  Maybe we agree on something else here.

[Wannabe...]

Well well well.  Somebody's been pretty diligent with their word of the day calendar haven't they.

A couple of sentiments I'd like to address:

1) How would it feel for interlopers to get free socialist healthcare on the sweat of a man's labor?

Well, it'd kind of feel like it does now here in this country I suppose when the illegals get free healthcare off my tax dime.

2) How would Wannabe feel about getting his ankle fixed in a socialist healthcare system?

Just dandy.  It's the brain cancer, liver transplant, open heart surgery and hip replacement at 60 that worries me.  I'd also have no problems with a flu shot in Norway either.

3) And how would I feel about "the man" using the sweat of my brow to contribute to a campaign?

Well, I should be told to shut up and get back to work as, you see, I have already been compensated for the sweat of my brow and what happens to the excess of company revenue I should have no say over provided I'm not a stockholder and if I am, well, I'd have the right to vote how I want in the next stockholder's election.  And while I'm at it, how can you make this point when the unions have none of the same restrictions under McCain Feingold and yet, they are stealing the fruits of the working man's labor?  Geez, that was a bush league argument.

But on the other hand, I'm pretty, so you've got that to look forward to.

Wannabe...